Posts by Ultimate Axiom

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

I think, as Heaven has already said, the answer is Yes and No! There are plenty of scriptures referring to the soul as being mortal, and plenty that speak of Hell. It’s what makes Christianity so fragmented. If you accept the Bible as the infallible, non-contradictory, inspired word of God then you have to accept position A and interpreted all the scriptures that disagree with it, or accept position B and interpret all the scriptures that disagree with that. And with dozens of combinations at your disposal, you have the potential for hundreds of denominations all sincerely believing that their position is the right one. The only real problem comes when one of them claims that they are the only true one and all the rest are controlled by Satan. But surely, no one would ever fall for that nonsense would they?

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Ultimate Axiom

I tend to agree, the JW position on hell is sometimes difficult to defend from a literal interpretation of many biblical passages, but it’s easy to defend from a logical and moral perspective.

Christ Alone, you sound a lot like many of the born again Christians I used to debate this with when I was “in”. If the only way to escape God’s infinite wrath is to become a Christian, what happens to the millions of Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists etc etc who are not convinced by the Christian message, founded as it is on a vengeful Jewish God, and who chose to live a devout and holy life in their own peaceful religion? It seems to me that those who “leave” as you put it, but who cling to Christianity, suffer their own cognitive dissonance, by having to reconcile the beautiful message of Christ with the primitive, vindictive, irrational and completely unjustifiable punishment the hell doctrine involves. And they do this of course because they want to hold on to the divinely inspired concept of the bible. I find your statement that, “Since God is holy and infinite, and sins committed against him require the full magnitude of divine punishment, this requires that punishment be infinite” to be absurd in the extreme (and that’s putting it politely). I think death (which is also infinite) to be sufficient punishment for the poor Buddhist mentioned above. Yes, I said that I would rather go to hell than worship a God that would create it. I also say that the only people worthy of hell are those that preach it. I think there's something deeply disturbing about a philosophy that promotes as acceptable the eternal torture of people who don’t accept their message.

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Ultimate Axiom

Christ Alone said, “It's interesting that some of the doctrines that are peculiar to the cults are the ones that many still hold onto even after leaving. Makes me wonder if some researched these matters outside of the NWT after leaving? As far as I can see, other translations show a far different picture of who Jesus is, what the soul is, and what the eternal destination of all of us after death.”

Londo111 said, “I do believe that we have an immortal spirit, our inner essence, that is conscious after death.”

Can you guys expand on this “eternal destination” “immortal spirit” thing? I haven’t researched other translations on the subject of hell, so w hat will become of the incorrigibly evil if they are immortal? You know guys like Satan? If there is no hell, what is their destination. If it’s hell, I for one would rather go there than worship a God that would create such a place.

By the way, excellent Youtube clip Heaven.

57

Did You Know A Lot Of Elders That Simply Weren't Too Bright?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i did.. most of the elders were decent men but i'd say a third weren't the brightest bulbs in the sky..

Ultimate Axiom

Most of the elders I knew back in the 70s were quite bright, a couple extremely so. But they had been educated before they became Witnesses, and were not averse to lively discussions (in private of course) that often veered well away from “official” WT lines. There seemed to be a lot more intellectual freedom back then, at least it appears so to me from reading posts from more recent ex-JWs. Or perhaps it was just that here in England the mental straightjacket wasn’t applied so much in those days. A few of the elders in the two congregations I served in were not too bright, and their public talks were excruciatingly boring, but I would say that all of them were decent people, and I never had any trouble with them any of them when I decided to leave. I was even invited to one of the elder’s daughter’s weddings a couple of years after I had stopped attending meetings.

239

A big shift in the world is about to happen......

by EndofMysteries in

i don't want to deceive anyone and i have to clarify a few things so i'm sorry this is going to be a lot more vague then you want.

infact if you do not already realize or also feel something is about to happen as in the title, then move along, it will be a month or 2 before i update this.

it's not my intention to annoy anybody, i am too uncomfortable to post any details because it's too new and i need to verify things, and i am also feeling responsible to give a subtle warning, that it might be something somebody needs to see.

Ultimate Axiom

EOM, at least four times on this thread you have either said or implied that you will say no more until you have worked it all out in two months or so. I respectfully suggest you keep to that, as in my very short time on this forum this seems about the most ridiculous thread I have encountered.

Fencing - I think your question is an extremely good one, but probably impossible to answer.

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Ultimate Axiom

But what do the "signs" mean? Everything they said about the signs prior to 1914 has been proven wrong by the passage of time. After the event prophecies are no prophecies at all. And that's only the tip of the iceberg, take a look here - http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Ultimate Axiom

They didn't get 1914 right. Everything they say now about 1914 was formulated after 1914 - apart that is, from it being the "end of the Gentile Times". And we now know that even if you accept the day for a year stuff in the application of Daniel's prophecy, they have that wrong as well.

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Ultimate Axiom

Yes Hell, and by logical deduction, the immortality of the soul. Political neutrality (the theory not the practice) and abstinence from armed conflict, which although scripturally correct it is quite impractical when faced with real live evil. The Trinity is somewhat irrelevant, as it has little bearing on the true “nature” of God, but I think on balance they are right on this. Most of the rest (the cross, images, Christmas, Easter, birthdays, saluting the flag etc, etc) are also essentially irrelevant, what does any of it really matter? What really matters is the mandate that demands the surrender of one’s conscience to a body of men in Brooklyn, and that outweighs everything else.

80

What apostates fail to recognize is...

by nananana in

you can cut & paste all the excerpts from articles you want...you can leak all the boe letters, you can pretend to be witnesses and come to the conventions and meetings...but.

no other organization can begin to rival the success and magnitude of the prophecy found in mt 24:14. so apostates....don't waste your time spending countless hours digging up articles and reading books to convince yourself to turn away from jh's organization.

no matter what "evidence" you find you cannot ignore the obvious fulfillment of matthew 24:14.. .

Ultimate Axiom

And Brazil is among those counties where 90% of JWs preach!

80

What apostates fail to recognize is...

by nananana in

you can cut & paste all the excerpts from articles you want...you can leak all the boe letters, you can pretend to be witnesses and come to the conventions and meetings...but.

no other organization can begin to rival the success and magnitude of the prophecy found in mt 24:14. so apostates....don't waste your time spending countless hours digging up articles and reading books to convince yourself to turn away from jh's organization.

no matter what "evidence" you find you cannot ignore the obvious fulfillment of matthew 24:14.. .

Ultimate Axiom

I don’t know if nananana reviews his/her own posts now and again, but just in case I thought I would add a few numbers to the Mat 24.14 prophecy as I know that Jehovah’s Witnesses love their numbers. Less than 1% of Jehovah’s Witnesses preach in 40 countries that contain over half of the world’s population. At the other end of the scale over 90% of Jehovah’s Witnesses preach in 45 countries that contain less than a third of the world’s population. That doesn’t seem like an “obvious fulfilment” of Mat 24.14 to me. (Figures taken from the 2012 Yearbook).

As a new, and relatively infrequent poster on this forum, I don’t know all the etiquette, nor much of what has gone before. But I would like to say that I found the tread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/160509/1/Warren-Schroeder-from-Bethel-on-Freddy-Kline-and-the-apostate-books to be extremely informative and enlightening, and would like to thank all those who contributed to it. It really was amazing.

And finally, a question. Why are so many so hostile to posters like nananana and Recovery? It doesn’t seem necessary to me. They will grow old and die waiting for Armageddon, and I feel sorry for them. Humouring their rants would seem a better strategy to me.